Lived Experience Forum

[Sahara]

Hi @Former-Member,

I'm just guessing, but I would say that the lady who was visiting you was told by people at her church to try and persuade you to keep attending their services. They need to retain as many members as they can and also keep recruiting new members.... this is just the reality of any group that aims to survive and flourish. 

When your 'friend' couldn't persuade you, she would have felt annoyed, because she will 'lose face' with her superiors at the church. She will probably be told to turn her attentions elsewhere, now.

You might even receive a visit from someone more senior in the church, in a last-ditch effort to try and get you back into the fold. If this doesn't work, then they will turn their attentions on to someone else. They can't afford to waste valuable time and resources on people who are not going to follow them and be obedient... it wouldn't make political and economic sense.

This is just basic group dynamics... it's the same for any group- be it religious, or whatever. I am sorry if I am sounding too analytical!

I am sorry you have been hurt by your so-called friend. It's very hard, I know. I have been hurt in the same way by a friend who recruited me to join an organisation (a non-religious one.) Once I began to criticize the organisation, she left me high and dry.  I was very hurt by this and to this day I still think of her.... it's been over 10 years now. 

I just realize now that she was never great 'friend material'- she always only  thought about how her actions looked to others and had no loyalty. As a result, she was constantly changing friends and giving up on people who she found fault in. Very fickle!!

[Former-Member]

Wow @Sahara, that's cold! Group dynamics thing - ya probably right. I'm more a heart person than group protocol - if ever included in it... And guess that's why I'm withdrawing more - because I was never 'included' - which again is my fault I know because I'm not there every Sunday.

I hate that I'm seen as a drain on their resources (the one 'friend' visits) - what's with that, I give my fair share there, when they let me. Maybe I should cut off the direct debit into the church account and stop contacting or visiting one of them when I go into town and my prayers (they never stop). And what's so portant about me arming a seat anyway? 'Numbers' I guess. Well, they can stuff a few dummy scarecrows to bulk up numbers. Crapola on 'group dynamics' No love in that - just business administration. They probably feel rejected by me I guess, but I like the people, and help them (even outside Sunday) but not the formality of Sunday. Don't like travelling there, I don't know.

This is why I started the thread - because I think the problems in me but I can't figure it out.

[Appleblossom]

I would not be so sure that "the problem" is in you @Former-Member.  Maybe its your spiritual journey and they have been an important part of that journey.  And Yes if you are contributing financially as well as all the other moral support, beverages, company and nursing wisdom ways .. they are more at fault ..

I am ambivalent about my church too.  But pretty sure the problem is actually in my church too .. to the point that there was an Age article doing an expose .. on the particular one.. 

Because I have done a lot of the group dynamics studies .. I know what @Sahara means .. its not about it being personal to you .. its systems .. and economies in matter and behaviour .. you are right its the way group's often "do business"... hearts are of a different order ..

I am used to compromise .. I have not been as lucky as @Kurra and in the past I have never felt that I should expect anyone or group .. not family .. not church .. to accept me as I was. 

Actually .. the closest a group has done that was here at Sane .. where I just let rip .. no holds barred.

Its lovely .. and slowly .. warming the cockles of my heart .. that I am still accepted ..

after all these posts.

keep taking stock .. keep taking steps .. little steps .. sniffing the breeze .. so you can teel which way is right for you.

I always knew I had a heart .. but I never could talk about what was actually in my heart .. totally stumped when a lovely ladyfriend writer told me to write what was in my heart ... somehow found safety in cooler more analytical styles, but always dedicated to "trouble-shooting" the problems of my heart..  

Now I know I have a big heart .. with all sorts of passions and feelings ..  I still need the cooler part of me for balance .. your inner dynamic is probably different .. I am ok with Vive La Differance I so like the honesty we have in our discussions.

I was reading about Murray Bowen's "Differentiation of Self" .. and try to find ways to bridge gaps ..

[Former-Member]

Thanks @Appleblossom, must look up Murray Brown (not heard of him). You're provably right, and it feels right in my heart - that my journey is taking a new direction to fellowship in the local community I'm in, instead of going out of town. My VC (visiting critic) friend does seem conflicted with it all (slap in the face etc) hut maybe that's because she has a 'conflict of interest' - Tawney between me and church elders. Don't think she knows if I'm a friend or a 'duty' - I do know she likes yo report back to them my news, and they ask her rather than ring me if I don't go (another bugbear of mine grr). Its a small church of only 18 adults, 20children (only 3 singles), we don't have a church building as such, they split up into 3 home groups, all 30min+ drive away. My group forgets to tell me when they change venue, and it changes a lot. I don't like being forgotten, left out, neglected, talked about, buffed when i want to visit, apart from 'church' through the week or judged for missing half the time or attending. My VC goes to one of the other groups usually but geographically closer and she knew my girl when we attended the local U/C together 2007. Her hubby's 80yo parents are elders and they always talk through the week of cause. It often feels like I don't belong +which sounds like you might feel similar - maybe its a BPS or C-PTSD thing. Anyway, as my ONLY visitor who comes here this will be a loss, I'd she forgets that we actually are friends. And guess I do have the right to make a change. Thanks for replying.

Yes, you have a BIG heart Apple, that's why you cover it so well, and because its bruised and sore to touch. But hey, you know this. Stay strong 🙂

[Former-Member]

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@Kurra wrote:
Hi @Former-Member
My God is a loving god. He doesn't judge me or love me according to how often I go to church. He accepts me as I am.
My friends from church accept me as I am and love me as one of the fold unconditionally.
My belief is that the ways in which I live my life, the ways I help other people without any expectation of any reward or brownie points in the after life.
I honour my god through my life and the caring and sharing, the compassion I give to all peoples regardles of their personal beliefs, nationality, the colour of their skin or their specific religious philosophy.
Conditional acceptance and 'love' are not and never will be a part of my philosophy of life.
Hugzzz 💕 🎶

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Ditto! You are one special lady Kurra. I am not usually sentimental but your post - straight from the heart - brought tears to my eyes. I could not have put it better. Have a very joyful Christmas my friend 💕

[Newwave]

You are such a beautiful soul. Stay true to you. Continue in faith and love. Draw a line in the sand. Now that your in a better place other doors will open and sunshine rain in.
Dont be bullied. It is obvious your not a bully.
After i have been in a good disposition and now finding myself in a similar position to you... having less is really more for me more consideration more genuine attitude and the need to be realistic. God Bless you on your continued journey.

[Former-Member]

hello @Former-Member

I have read your posts and others responses.

My intuition, inner sense is telling me that you have grown within yourself, grown from life lessons, you have demonstrated your love and compassion on here so many times. I know that I am repeating myself, but I feel that you need to hear it again and again. Belief in yourself. {yes I am doing the same}.

I feel that you have outgrown the "church" and some of the people who are in that "church" seem to have lost the true meaning of faith, love, compassion.

Perhaps this VC cannot cope with the new tawney, the strong, resilient tawney.

Often when people are drawn to church groups they are at a vulnerable stage in their life. Other members are there for them and offer support.

Some of these other members are only able to be supportive, friendly when someone is in a vulnerable state. They have their own insecurities that they have not faced and grown themselves and feel confronted or even threatened by someone else who has shown that they can face and grow stronger in the face of adversity.

I do not mean to label or insult anyone  who attends a church as their are so many lovely people, my own relatives were very devout followers. I often think about attending myself but the last few times over the years have spent the whole sessions non stop crying. very embarrassing as all these strangers rush to console.

As in any group there are always those who dont like change.

Start a new one if you want to continue. A project for Tawney.

big hug xxxx

[Shaz51]

Hello @Former-Member

sometimes new doors open to us while other doors close

It happened to us , we were going every week  and to bible study until the Lord opened up another door for us and especially to my hubby to help others

and I sure this door opening is for my Husband  and your Recovery my friend xx

also how do you feel, does it feel right that you are helping in your community

we still go now and then , but they keep ringing us and telling us to become members and to come back every week , But the Bible doesn`t tell you that you have to go every week

and how about the people that can`t get to church because it is too far away

[Former-Member]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to express different insights, perspectives. I've struggled with this issue with 'church' on and off all my life. So many different 'christian' churches its bazzare. The hard part is that interpretation that poor attendance is 'disobedience' and reflects a spirit of 'rebellion' and basically deliberate 'sin' But I think, I hope, God is bigger than all that and understands the individual and judges the heart. Test I want to 'belong' somewhere, but this apparent 'legalism' is not the gospel, I think.
It does concern me that I've not had too many replies from consistent church goers, and lots from people who don't attend church.
This is not intended to put down the church but to help me work through it. And the 'friend' vs 'charity case' thing.

Especially in relation to MI, in the church, because even thats viewed as a lack of faith, a choice, more so than physical illness. A friend once told me 'despair is a sin' (to be turned away from), hello, I'd give anything to stop hurting that much.

Any ministers on the forums? If I was one of your flock, what would you say?

Its occurred to me lately that i may have experienced significant 'Spiritual Abuse' which needs some healing. That on top of the unfavourable childhood & horrible marriage... there's so much unravelling too complex for any 'therapist' to work through. The spiritual side especially.

@Kurra, one day to go for you at work (don't know how you do it), hope you're ok, hows your hb? are you taking iron? I've just been diagnosed with anemia (Hb 109), taking iron gives me more energy. Hope you get some good rest in your holidays. I did love your earlier post @Former-Member reminded me of, the 'church' does get it wrong a lot, and sadly put ritual before love, to stay viable. But like most man made structures its far from perfect. I oft wonder, if there was NO church, would the world remember Jesus? If there were no christian nations (no west), what would the world look like today? There'd certainly be no Christmas.

@Shaz5@, gosh, that's the longest post I've seen for a while, thank you. I like the idea of a 'new beginning' a change in direction, an open door were meant to take in our journey. Thank you for telling me you've had a similar experience. If I can just get through to VC that I have no malice, just being lead elsewhere and I want to stay friends...

@Former-Member, I like the idea of a 'new project for tawney' almost sounds exciting.

xox

[Zoe7]

Hi @Former-Member

Haven't had a chance to really catch up with you the last few days - sh*t going on - taking up all my head space! How have you been?